INTERVIEW WITH PAKISTAN'S PRESIDENT, GENERAL PERVEZ MUSHARRAF

In an exclusive interview, Pakistan president Pervez Musharraf talks about winning the war on terror, how the teaching of Islam has fallen into the wrong hands, and that John Howard might know a bit more about cricket than he does. Eric Ellis reports.

Pakistan’s President, General Pervez Musharraf, in Canberra this week in the first visit to Australia by a Pakistani president, defies conventional politics.

He’s the military chief who toppled a democratically elected government in a bloodless military coup in 1999 - “because democracy has failed in this country” - and yet rules over what many Pakistanis say is the one of the most liberal administrations in its 58 years since independence from the British Raj.

With his smart suits, he presents as a modern civilian leader but one who just can’t quite bring himself to mothball his uniform, eschewing the pomp and distance of Islamabad’s civilian presidential palaces for his old quarters at Army House in the garrison city of Rawalpindi.

Musharraf is ostensibly a military dictator but he is pragmatically feted in democratic capitals - Washington, London, Paris, Brussels - and now Canberra - as the enlightened autocrat who's easy to love. Pakistan has a flourishing press and parliament but Musharraf’s rule is unchallenged as he bars his two main political opponents, former democratically elected prime ministers Nawaz Sharif and Benazir Bhutto, from returning from exile in the Middle East to fight elections.

Many Pakistanis are rabidly anti-American and yet Musharraf is probably George W Bush’s – and by extension John Howard’s – most pivotal ally in the war on terror, one reason why he has suffered six assassination attempts in the past two years. That war is being waged next door in Afghanistan against Taliban extremists that Islamabad's agents created and nourished in Pakistani schools and camps. Even today Osama bin Laden and his Al Qaeda remnants roam Pakistan’s wilder frontiers - some in Washington suspect with the (denied) complicity of Pakistani officials (when asked where Osama is, a Musharraf aide jokingly opens his desk draw and says "he’s in here") – while Musharraf flirts with mullahs and hectors Pakistanis to moderate, prosper and, as he puts it, "normalise" one of Islam’s more rigid states.

Pakistan is a country as advanced to be the world’s first Islamic nuclear power – its physicists flouted international treaties by selling weapons technology to "rogue states" such as North Korea – and yet much of its population of 160 million live in desperate squalor. Pakistan is one of the world’s poorest countries but Musharraf, a career soldier who admits "knowing nothing of economics" before coming to power, has just presided over Asia’s fastest-growing economy (GDP reached a 20-year high of 8.4% in 2004-05) behind China. Pakistan has been a big economic winner from September 11.

Musharraf is a special forces commander who distinguished himself in the many wars Pakistan has fought with its nuclear-equipped neighbour India, an arms race which Western doomsayers have long forecast would be the likely cause of the world’s first nuclear war. But now, as President, he drives a rapprochement with New Delhi that many on both sides say, at their most optimistic, is becoming irreversible, certainly as warm as relations have been between the two in generations. He calls Indian Prime Minister Manmohan Singh a "personal friend" and recently hosted and charmed the Hindu chauvinist opposition leader L.K Advani. A South Asian Economic Community, a free trade zone of 1.5 billion people, is even being tentatively discussed by Islamabad and New Delhi.

As a Third World leader, he has been compared to Egypt’s Nasser, Turkey’s Ataturk and within Pakistan even to its venerated founder Mohamed Ali Jinnah. Musharraf sees Indonesia’s new democratic president Susilo Bambang Yudohoyono, leader of the world's most populated Muslim country, as a fellow traveller on a post 9-11 quest to moderate, prosper and “emancipate” the Islamic world, in "turmoil" because of neglect and abandonment by its enlightened intellectuals. He is on an international trip to sell that vision to the West, and in Islam’s most conservative corners where he calls on Islamic scholars “to become the Source of Light.”

In a frank discussion last week at Army House in Rawalpindi, he says he wants to sell that vision when in Australia, to Howard as a world leader, and to Australians, his allies in the war on terror in his backyard, to re-shape how we see Islam and Pakistan. The war on terror in winnable, he says, and this week there are counter-terrorism treaties to sign with Canberra and a prospering hub for South Asia as he sees it, to sell to Corporate Australia.

And with his team coming off successful tours of great rival India and the West Indies, he’s also keen to talk cricket.

TRANSCRIPT OF INTERVIEW AT ARMY HOUSE, RAWALPINDI JUNE 10, 2005

ERIC ELLIS: Salaam Aleikum (peace be upon you, traditional greeting)

PRESIDENT GENERAL PERVEZ MUSHARRAF: Aleikum salaam (and upon you)

Q: I’ve just been talking cricket with your aides

Musharraf (laughs): One feels a bit shy to talk of Pakistani cricket vis-à-vis Australia’s cricketers….

Q: Pakistan is doing pretty well at the moment….

Musharraf: They are doing well, we did very well in India, now we’ve done well in the West Indies.

Q: Who’s your favourite player?

Musharraf: I think (the captain) Inzaman Ul-haq. He is a man who performs under stress, unlike other great batsmen who perform when things are easy. He always performs when the team is under pressure. He got us the World Cup, in 1992. He rises to the occasion. I like that.

Q: Do you think he should captain the World XI that plays Australia later this year?
 

Musharraf: Well, I would like him to be, yes.

AUSTRALIA:

Q: Have you been to Australia before?

Musharraf: No.

Q: So what do you know of it?

Musharraf: My brother has been there for two years, he thinks Australia is the best country in the world. I know it is one of the most developed countries of the world

Q: What do you expect from the trip?

Musharraf: We must consolidate political relationships and, more important, economic relations. Australia is very good in dairy products, in livestock and in mining and these are three areas where we have tremendous scope.

Q: Why has it taken 50 years for a Pakistani leader to come to Australia?

Musharraf: I would say the loss is ours. There has been so much happening here in recent years, on the terrorism side, on the economic side, on the nuclear front, its never been a dull moment here. Now there is more time to explain to the world what we are doing…

Q: Have you met Prime Minister Howard?

Musharraf: No. I have spoken to him on the phone.

Q: Spoke of what?

Musharraf: It has always started with cricket. I must say he knows so much about our own cricket team, I was surprised and even a little apprehensive that he would tell me something about my team that I do not know myself. Beyond that, we have spoken of the international and regional situation.

Q: Australia is a strong ally of the U.S, as is Pakistan and particularly since September 11. The war on terror is clearly part of that relationship….?

Musharraf: There is certainly co-ordination on the terrorism side, co-ordination on the intelligence side, counter-terrorism, Australia and Pakistan will be signing a counter-terrorism protocol this coming week, that is extremely important. Now that we are trying to resolve disputes like Kashmir in our region, I would say the whole world needs to realise the importance and significance of resolving these disputes, and (countries like Australia) must put its weight behind these bilateral resolutions and I look forward to your Prime Minister doing that.

THE WAR ON TERROR

Q: I have seen you use the term ‘enlightened moderation.’ What do you mean by that?

Musharraf: It’s a strategic concept based on the fact that the world is in turmoil, its so disturbed and we should not want to leave this world in this condition for our future generations. The second issue is that the Islamic world is in turmoil and Pakistan is one of the most important countries of the Islamic world. We would like to bring harmony, progress and social prosperity to the Islamic world. At the global level its two-pronged; for the Muslim world to reject extremism and terrorism and go down the path of social and economic development; for the non-Muslim world, the West especially and most especially the U.S, resolving political disputes which are at the root of extremism and terrorism (such as Palestine and Chechnya.) In the Muslim world, we need to restructure the Organisation of Islamic Countries (OIC) in a manner that rejects extremism and correctly projects Islam, a correct understanding of the real values of Islam, for social and economic development to flourish, contributing to emancipation of Muslims. There are two issues to be resolved in the Muslim world; terrorism, which we need to combat head-on, confronting it, there is no doubt in that the military has to be used, force has to be used and we have to crush terrorism, we must fight it with all our force; extremism…is a state of mind, involves people who are rigid in their views about religion and they want to impose it on others, maybe with force also. They are anchored in the past, they don’t have progressive views. From this category terrorists are formed, are indoctrinated. It is very important that we tackle this extremist group. Now how do we do that? First of all, understanding Islam in its correct values. In the OIC there must be a department of Islamic Thought where the really enlightened Islamic scholars become the Source of Light, to project the right values and to persuade people to reject terrorism and extremism, though education, though seminars, however… they must do it. Pakistan is faced with religious terrorism and extremism and sectarian terrorism and extremism, we face the entire gamut of religious instability.

Q: What has brought that about for Pakistan? Poverty? Bad governance?

Musharraf: It comes from, and this is not just true of Pakistan..…..religious teaching , religious knowledge has been abdicated by the intellectuals, by the more enlightened people, they have left it to the clerics over all these years. The real values have been neglected. Nobody is giving the real values of Islam, peace and harmony, tolerance, developing of ideas through consensus, human exhortation, yes indeed, democracy and the responsibilities of an individual to society, to the nation, to secularism, to a (tolerant) attitude to minorities and modernism, all these things are embedded in true Islam. But religion has been abdicated by the intellectuals and hijacked by the less-educated. So the vast mass of people, in most of the Muslim countries are less educated, their literacy is only 50%. And now the masses are influenced by the less educated, that is the error of the intellectuals. That is the mistake, we need to take this mass to the side of more enlightened, real values of Islam. The Koran lays down certain basic principles and guidance, its knowledge-based, through discussion and debate. But what the cleric has done is to cap knowledge, not to think, (they say) ‘you do what we are saying, don’t think.’ This is absolutely against the teachings of Islam. It believes in education, or knowledge. This words is the third-most used words in the Koran, after the words for God. We have to take all the (Islamic) leaders on board, and this has to be approved though a special OIC summit. I was just in the UAE and Qatar and this was exactly what I am talking about, we have to restructure. This is easier said than done but the response has been good, everyone accepted at the recent OIC summit. In Pakistan, we are addressing the issue of the misuse of mosques that incite violence, of madrassas (Islamic schools) that are only teaching Islam, we want to mainstream them, suppress the extremists, to curb the pamphleteering, find the people who are doing this, stop them, teach the real values more than the rituals of Islam, include that in the syllabus. We never knew that were going to be confronted (by extremism), we were very comfortable before, we didn’t bother about this but we have to bother now. Poverty and education are the root causes so economic growth is very important. This is a big task, this is a long term task.

Q: A strong economy helps, of course?

Musharraf: When foreign investors look at Pakistan, this is the strongest argument I make to them. If you invest here, creating jobs, that means poverty alleviation which is to fight the root cause of extremism and terrorism so, I say, help me fight it by investing in Pakistan.

Q: You’ve mapped out a vision for the Islamic World. How does the West fit into your vision? The recent example of Koran desecration does not help..

Musharraf: These are individual acts and I must say whoever has done it is not a normal person, he is totally insensitive, he lacks understanding of the sensitivity of this in the minds and hearts of Muslims. Its unacceptable, what type of a person is he? I don’t understand. Irresponsible reporting too…just by that one story, so many people died, why couldn’t they have been more responsible. When we talk of enlightenment, of moderation, these acts make our job much more difficult.

Q: Have you had this discussion with President Bush?

Musharraf: Yes, indeed, and he is absolutely on board. I said to him your part of this strategy, to resolve these political disputes is so important. If you don’t do this, especially the Palestinian issue, all these other strategies in Iraq or Afghanistan (will not work). Resolve Palestine and you have struck off at least 50 per cent of the problem.

Q: You will have this same conversation with Mr Howard next week?

Musharraf: Yes, I will

Q: The war on terror can be won?

Musharraf: In my mind there is a solution. It is doable, therefore I am optimistic. I know the difficulty. Don’t alienate Muslims, if someone comes out with this idea of a clash of civilisations, how does that help? There is not a clash of civilisations. In Islam, Moses and Jesus are prophets in our Koran. We respect them as much as Christians or Jews respect them. Unfortunately actions speak louder than words and what people see is acts of these terrorists and therefore people think Islam is a religion of extremism and militancy. It is not.

RAPPROCHEMENT WITH INDIA

Q: The relationship with India seems to be gathering momentum. It’s a very different message that the Indians are used to hearing from Pakistan..

Musharraf: Very different, yes, we’ve come a long way and I’m very glad. I think this will considerably reduce the turmoil in our society because this turmoil is the direct fallout of what happened in Afghanistan for the last 26 years, since (the Soviet invasion of) 1979, and whatever has been happening in Kashmir in the last 16 years.

Q: How do you conclusively solve Kashmir? What is the critical obstacle to be overcome?

Musharraf: I don’t there is any obstacle if there is flexibility and sincerity on both sides. There’s no doubt in mind that there’s a solution. If there is sincerity, and I feel at the moment that there is sincerity on both sides. In (Indian) Prime Minister Singh I see sincerity to resolve the dispute, but more is needed, you need flexibility to accept each other’s views and then you need courage also, there are extremists (opposed to peace) on both sides.

Q: What’s your personal chemistry with PM Singh?

Musharraf: Very good

Q: Is he a friend?

Musharraf: Yes, indeed, the few times I have met him, I find him a humble man, I find him a gentleman, I see sincerity in him.

THE ECONOMY

Q: I’m struck by just how little economic activity there is between two significant neighbours

Musharraf: We’ve already signed an economic co-operation agreement. People like to say when two elephants quarrel, the grass gets trampled. I have modified it a little that when two elephants make love, also the grass gets effected, it will be more trampled. There is trade, joint ventures, investment, there is tremendous scope, tremendous commonality, opportunities in investment, in tourism. If we normalised, there would be millions of tourists coming from India, this creates jobs. We are the strategic hub for the Gulf, Central Asia, Western China…and of course South Asia. There is no interaction between these four regions unless Pakistan is involved.

Q: Why is the economy doing well? Pakistan has been a winner from the events that followed September 11, 2001?

Musharraf: When I came on the scene in 1999….our debt to GDP ratio was 101 per cent, now it is 59 per cent, even better than the European Union target. We go debt write-offs and debt re-profiling at the Paris Club. We have increased our exports by about 100 per cent, our foreign direct investment has increased by 300 per cent. All the macro indicators are positive, our GDP is growing by 8.4 per cent, our foreign exchanges reserves are equal to one year of imports, our currency exchange rate is stable, inflation was under control, now it has gone up to nine per cent and we need to control that, and our credit rating has gone up. Yes, indeed, it did effect but let no-one think that it was only 9/11 that did it. Our exports hit a record in July 2001, before 9/11. But 9/11 has played a role, certainly.

Q: What further reforms are needed?

Musharraf: What we need to do is check inflation, we talked about this at the National Security Council just yesterday, poverty reduction and checking inflation. We have to give the macro gains to the people at the micro level, the strategy in broad terms is that economic gains should move hand in glove with a poverty alleviation structure, across all sectors, the strategy is very clear

Q: Corruption. When you took power, you laid down an agenda that demanded corruption be eradicated. Transparency International ranks Pakistan as one of the more corrupt countries of the world.

Musharraf: I would like to correct that. They ranked us second most corrupt in 1998-99, only Nigeria was more corrupt. We are now under that (mid-ranked), we are no longer in that league of corruption. But still it is bad, I agree with you, and I don’t like it. I am concerned with what I call strategic corruption; being done by people who should not be corrupt, they have enough, why are they corrupt? But their corruption is effecting Pakistan’s economy, its development, its governance and it must be wiped out. I am raising my voice my voice in the United Nations, and in the West. Why are they not taking concrete measures against what I call loot-money laundering? They can stop drug money laundering but why cant they stop this? Don’t they know which world leaders have billions of dollars in accounts? Why isn’t anyone stopping that? Why are you not regulating this? Why are you not giving this back to us? Because obviously the Western banks are gaining.

Q: Is that why you wont let former leaders of Pakistan return?

Musharraf: Yes, absolutely. I have no personal grudge against them, well one of them I do because he tried to kill me (Nawaz Sharif, now exiled in Saudi Arabia) but I don’t get killed that easy. The issue is that they have looted and plundered this poor country. They lacked….(he searches for the correct word to combine the notion of good intentions and honour)… when the leaders themselves are looting and plundering, what are the other people going to do. Ten per cent of people are incorruptible, ten per cent are incorrigible, they do what they damn well please and they need to be sorted out, and 80 per cent are fence-sitters, they are saying well if the boss is correct, it must be OK, if the boss is honest, then we’ll also be honest.

Q: Where do you fit in?

Musharraf: I have never in my life taken a penny. Everything I eat, I pay for with my own pay.

Q: What is your salary?

Musharraf: My salary as army chief was only about 28,000 rupees, about $US500. Since January 1, I am drawing the president’s pay, which happens to be about 85,000 rupees. I declared my assets, the day I came and I told the nation that when I go, I will also tell them

SECURITY, DEMOCRACY AND THE PAKISTANI MILITARY

Q: A KFC was attacked the other day and six people killed. How do convince foreign investors that Pakistan is safe?

Musharraf: An investor’s basic concerns is the security of investment, and how profit will he make. Security of investment; there are about 700 foreign firms and never in the history of Pakistan have they been harmed (by the government), they have always made good profits. Even in the 1970’s when nationalisation was going on, not one foreign firm was touched. The contract law gives a lot of cover to foreign investors. The KFC just happened to be next door to where the disturbance was. This was a sectarian issue, a domestic issue, this was not an attack on the West, its not targeting foreigners, its targeting each other, Shia versus Sunni. Abroad, one should understand that, its very different. As far as profitability is concerned, every foreign firm here has made profits in double digits, many of them between 20 and 50 per cent. With Caltex and Shell, its consistently about 25 per cent. This kind of profit is nowhere in the West, you cannot consistently make double digits in Europe or the U.S. Here there is such a gap between demand and supply that when you come into this gap, you make good profits.

Q: You have suffered six assassination attempts in the last 2-3 years. How does that effect you as a person, and your ability to govern effectively.

Musharraf: I don’t get effected. I go very frequently to have coffee and hot chocolate in hotels, I go reasonably frequent to eat in hotels, I go fairly regularly to attend marriage parties, to my friends’ houses, yesterday my friend was going away for two months and I went to play bridge with him. No, I am not barricaded, you might find it odd but I do not get scared. I do understand that I put staff at risk and that concerns me, their protection is very important to me.

Q: How do you know peoples’ aspirations? To reach them, and to combat sycophancy in your inner circle?

Musharraf: One should be able to judge sycophants. They do not emerge on their own, they are encouraged by the person themselves. I do not encourage this. I want to listen, I want to here their honest views and I wont get annoyed. So they speak. I believe in people airing their opinions, I will not curb that and I am a good listener. I believe in listening, in giving a voice to everyone but I also believe that when I have heard everyone and I give my word, that word is final. I don’t like objection to what we have mutually decided. People say that military doesn’t have democracy. There is democracy in military. The difference is that in other forums people talk and then they decide on something and when they go out they are still talking of the same. In the military, we don’t allow that, we have decided something (after widespread consultation) and everyone should be on board.

Q: Pakistan presents as a military dictatorship…

Musharraf: In the past, at speeches by a leader, only one TV microphone was allowed, that of the state TV. We have opened it out, today there are dozens of channels, dozens waiting in the pipeline to get licences, everyone speaks out, opposition is allowed to speak, I know what they talk about me because I listen to it. I have no skeletons in the cupboard, I am not scared, let anyone talk….and I am very glad. When people talk of democracy and accuse me of dictatorship, I laugh at them, because these are people who have taken one facet of democracy, that I happen to be a man in uniform. OK, I fail in that, although that also the National Assembly and the Senate though a two-thirds majority have allowed me to do that, have asked me to remain in uniform.

Q: Isn’t it important symbolically to take off your uniform, become a civilian President? You’ve talked of that before.

Musharraf: Why didn’t I do it? Because the nation was facing turmoil internally, in the region, internationally, the issue of nuclear proliferation, of terrorism, Afghanistan, Kashmir, extremists…we needed unity of decision, unity of control and whether one likes it or not, fortunately or unfortunately I happened to provide that.

Q: Can you see a day when you will take your uniform off?

Musharraf: Yes (but) the constitution allows me to stay in uniform until 2007.

Q: Would you run as a civilian candidate in a 2007 democratic presidential election?

Musharraf: I haven’t decided. There are two years still to go. I also believe that one should call it a day when one is at the peak. This is one of my beliefs.

Q: Go out as a winner..but your work isn’t done..

Musharraf: Not 100 per cent

Q: Do you see a constitutional role for the military in Pakistan?

Musharraf: Yes, absolutely. I’ve always said our basic malaise in our political milieu in Pakistan, why has democracy failed here, why has there always been martial laws, we analysed all this. We realised there were two problems, no democracy at grassroots level, people were governed through commissioners, a superintendent of police, a colonial system, these people were the kings of their districts and we continued with it. The people were hurt. I thought that the people should govern and the bureaucrats are the servants of the people. So a local government system was introduced, let the power be vested in the people of Pakistan, women were empowered, minorities were empowered, so now they have a meaning, they have a strength. Now the commissioners and the police function through (elected) district councils. Democracy doesn’t have a set formula, you in Australia have a different environment as it suits you. The environment here in our experience of 50 years was such that there are three powerbrokers; the President, the Prime Minister and the Army Chief. What has happened? Prime Ministers who misgovern, corrupting, looting and plundering, totally corrupting democracy through the constitution. There was no check on it. Then the President who had the power of dismissing the assembly but this was taken away from him. There have also been presidents who have been whimsical, for personal reasons sorting out the PM, there was always a clash between PM and President. And when they quarrelled, what happened? Every time, everyone runs to the Army Chief to sort out the problem….the people of Pakistan expect the Army Chief to save Pakistan every time. We have now created a National Security Council; the chairman is the President…look at the members; the chief ministers of the four provinces, whoever they are, the chairman of the Senate, whoever he is, the Speaker of the National Assembly, whoever he is, the Leader of the Opposition…..all of them are elected people, and the Prime Minister. Now, and this where the democratic forces in the world should understand that this is our environment, and the uniformed people; the army, navy and air force chief and the chairman of the joint chiefs of staff and they are there so that the army chief does not take over, an inbuilt checks and balances system that will do the job. People who say this is undemocratic, well if don’t have this council, 5, 10 or 15 years down the track we will have another martial law situation

Q: There is no religious representation on the council.

Musharraf: No, but there is a religious party running a province then they are there, of course they..

Q: What role do you see religion playing in your vision of the Pakistani state?

Musharraf: The religion doesn’t play any role except that the constitution of Pakistan embodies the Islamic ideology of Pakistan in that no laws repugnant to Islam can be enacted in Pakistan.

Q: But you do see a separation between the so-called church and state?

Musharraf: Yes, indeed, within that, there is nothing like religious clerics being represented or anything.

PERSONAL

Q: Did you ever think you would be President?

Musharraf: No, not at all. I never thought of it but I did want to become a general. I even told my wife that I didn’t think I would be the (army) chief.

Q: Personal heroes?

Musharraf: A lot of people think my hero is Ataturk of Turkey. No, but he did a great job for his country in creating modern Turkey, saving it from being the sick man of Europe. As far as I am concerned, my hero is Quaid-E-Azam (or Great Leader, Mohamed Ali Jinnah), creator of Pakistan, he is my hero.

Q: Ghandi?

Musharraf: No, no, he was not. Because I don’t think he was doing anything for the Muslims, he was doing a lot for the Hindus. How can be my hero? My hero is Quaid-e-Azam , because of his character, not only because he made Pakistan, he was a man of great character, a man of great vision.